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Poster: pookie Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:40pm
Forum: etree Subject: This is NOT good news

Let me understand this, Over a week ago We were able to DOWNLOAD soundboards, and audience recording for fun and for free. And now on 11-30-05 you could you only stream the soundboards. This is NOT good news. You should never give something out for free than take it back. That just bad karma. I understand the Grateful Dead has provided us fans with dedicades of outstanding live concerts. However us fans have also given to the band, thru purchasing tickets, spending money on traveling throughout this wonderful country supporting them for forty years.

I personally have bought almost all the Dick Picks series, and Vault CD's & DVD's.

Even though I have downloaded soundboards for free, I have purchase goods from GDM as well. I feel it has been pretty even between the band and the fans. So to take away the ability to download soundsboards is a very ungrateful mean spirited thing for the band (except Phil) and thier management to do to the deadicate following.

At least Metallica has never given out free soundboards, it always has been about the money $$$ with them. Metallica is upfront with thier greed. Streaming soundboards is NOT good news. :-(


PS. To all the good folks at LMA, I do appreciate all the hard work that is done on this website DAILY. It is a blessing. THANK YOU, THANK YOU

This post was modified by pookie on 2005-11-30 21:40:44

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Poster: TreesRocksRivers Date: Nov 30, 2005 10:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Agreed, this is not good news if you ask me.

First off, can someone tell me exactly who decided to pull the sounboards for download off the site? Was it the dead, was it archive, or who?

I guess I just don't get it. The soundboards are a clearer way to listen to exactly what was happening musically, and its a shame that we're going to lose this ability. I see no point in reducing the quality of the music on pupose. The only reason to pull these shows from download is if the dead believes they are being sold to make profit. Give me a break... if that's the concern, why not put the shows up for free as they were so there would be no reason to buy copies since everyone could get them for free anyway.

Why is it always money ruining a good thing.

I'm all for protecting the dead's interest in their product, but so many of us not only browse archive, but buy shirts, DVD's... hell I even bought some golf balls on their website for a gift once. It all balances out, things were fine as they were, with soundboards available for download as well as streaming.

Bring back the boards.

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Poster: gdeadmatt Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

We have been very fortunate to have the LMA for the last while. If you did not learn that over the last week, then I don't know what's wrong with you. Now is not the time to be complaining. It's a time to be thankful that our concerns were addressed. And be thankful that the sbds are still hear to listen to and research and if you find one you like, then you can go out and find a copy of it. They're all out there. I don't know what makes you think that you are entitled to any more than this. You are an ungrateful, selfish person.

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Poster: tcappellett Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

I am fine with just the boards being available for streaming..I really didn't download them anyway because it just took up too much space. Problem is, where are they? I just checked and it is still only showing aud listings?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Dec 1, 2005 1:34am
Forum: etree Subject: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

The audienced based downloads should all be up now.

Streaming soundboards are coming back in the next day or so, we appreciate your patience.

The website is slow and wobbly based on the traffic to the forums.

onward!

-brewster


This post was modified by brewster on 2005-12-01 09:34:42

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Poster: patkelley Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

out of curiosity- how did Vault recordings make there way here?
I usually stream the shows anyways, so the D/L issue affects me somewhat less. But, I did find it kind of strange that the Band (or their agents, or whomever) did what they did after all the GD members expressly relinquished claims to their recordings. Although I realize that they probably intended for their generosity to extend primarily to AUD recordings (which brings me back to the question I led with).
You've created a great thing here, Brewster, and I hope that you dont take the much criticism from some folks too seriously.
PK

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Poster: ednro Date: Dec 2, 2005 5:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Thank God for Diana Hamilton. What a sweethearted, kind, not-a-mean-sprited-bone-in-her-body lady; putting up with us angry Deadheads for the past two weeks.

I, for one, am glad we have the auds back for downloading, and am hoping fervently that the sbds come back shortly for downloading, also.

Thank you, Diana, for the calming influence you have had on the Archive and us Deadheads!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 8:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Deep breath now- OMM

(Blush) Thanks! The favor I call in:

If any more people can give me a hand with calming things here now, rather than heating things up here (since almost all possible viewpoints have been pretty fully expressed at this point and are getting a bit redundant again), that would be really great. It would be wonderful to have things settle down so we can get back to enjoying music and talking about other bands too and stuff.

Possibly a lot of folks can help do that it practice. The key is in trying to have the patience, balance and perspective to reply- or *not* to reply- appropriately to others. So, give it a try! Thanks again!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 16:57:36

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Poster: Tampa Red Date: Dec 8, 2005 10:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Thank God for Diana Hamilton. What a sweethearted, kind, not-a-mean-sprited-bone-in-her-body lady; putting up with us angry Deadheads for the past two weeks.

I, for one, am glad we have the auds back for downloading, and am hoping fervently that the sbds come back shortly for downloading, also.

Thank you, Diana, for the calming influence you have had on the Archive and us Deadheads!


You have just got to be kidding me...

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Poster: musicflyz Date: Dec 8, 2005 11:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Due to Hurricane Katrina, I just lost a computer with lots of '74 to '77 shows on the hardrive. I live in New Orleans and am a longtime fan of the Dead. Ever since I caught that one off show back in the late 80's, I have been collecting shows.
While I long to be able to download shows, anything at this point in time is considered a blessing.
I too am at least a bit thankful for the ability to stream some shows.
I mainly listen to vinyl anyway so I guess I am in the minority in this age of digital.

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Poster: ednro Date: Dec 8, 2005 10:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Well, as of Dec. 2, that was the case. The times they are a'changing. and that sucks.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 8, 2005 10:52am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mal-lingering

Wow, you found your way back here even without a bookmark! ;)
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=48753

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-08 18:52:58

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Pookie,

I can understand your point that you now do not have easy access to the soundboards that you used to. But to look at it another way, the Grateful Dead did not put these shows on the archive site to give away, the a dedicated group of fans did. So in a sense the Dead did not put them there, so blaming them for taking them away is not quite right, but I understand that is subtle, stay with me a moment...

We have moved them to stream only to try to build a compromise that works. The soundboards, as I understand it, mostly came from their "vault" as differenciated from the audience recordings. This seem to be an understandable differentiation line.

But the bigger issue for me is that all the great music is accessible again in some form or another. We work towards "Universal Access to All Knowledge". Some of that access will come with some restrictions if it is going to be free (such as having to go to a library to check out a book).

When music became unavailable in any form (at least without having to resort to sending cassettes through the mail once again) we were very sad. Now there is some version of these concerts available to all.

Maybe this helps, maybe not, but it is another point of view.

-brewster





This post was modified by brewster on 2005-11-30 22:04:32

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Their Vault? I NEVER knew that the TAPERS had access to this VAULT i keep hearing about...

The sbds in question are from the shelves or drawers of the TAPERS but NOT from the GD Vault......If they do not own the physical tapes,they're WRONG!!!!! If they didn't want to have sbds circulated,they wouldn't have LET THE TAPERS PLUG IN!!!!!!!

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Poster: liranfa Date: Dec 3, 2005 3:35am
Forum: etree Subject: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

In case some of you haven't been to Phil's site in the last 24 hours, he released a FREE soundboard of 11/22/05 from his current tour. I can only believe that this is a reaction to the recent events that his bandmates and/or affiliations have engaged in. As Phil's site says..."Remember, the music is free!". I love Phil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now Mickey has made a public statement siding with Phil.......that leaves Billy and Bobby. Who pulled the plug? Internal strife continues!!!!!!

This post was modified by liranfa on 2005-12-03 11:35:09

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Poster: ehrichweiss Date: Dec 3, 2005 3:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

Everyone I know who has ever met or talked to Bobby will tell you that he's the likely culprit(they use choice words about his attitude). Bill is a possibility but only because he doesn't really have that much to fall back on these days. My vote's on Bob.

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Poster: liranfa Date: Dec 3, 2005 5:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

What is stunning to me is the lack of communication between the boys. What happened to the lovey-dubby feeling that permeated the first couple of tours? Some friends of mine who claim to be "in the know" (I never usually give these people much credence), claim that the boys were not getting along again at the end of the summer 2004 tour. I'm now thinking they were right and that they might not play together again. The Dead make "All My Children" look like amateur hour.

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Poster: ehrichweiss Date: Dec 3, 2005 8:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

Yeah, I kinda equate it to what happened to my whole family on my father's side when my grandmother died. Once she was gone, everyone was free to bicker at will and eventually enough feelings were hurt to tear the thing apart. Took them about a year to do so but they did it rather well.

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Poster: A Dude Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:17pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

What I would like to see restored is all the reviews written by Archive patrons, including the ones about shows that are no longer available.

I'm not talking about the recordings, just the reviews, and I'm referring to a situation that pre-dates 11/23.

In some cases, particular dates led to pages with reviews that then said "no longer available, you can purchase the commercial release here" with a link to gdstore.com .

But in other cases, the date was removed entirely, as if the GD had never played a show on that date - and all the reviews were lost.

Having a page for all the dates, with links to their store, can only help the GD. It's a win-win, and I'm baffled as to why the dates were removed.

I hope that this was also a miscommunication, and the year pages can have links to every show played, and the ones that have commercial releases have links to the store, plus our reviews.

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:29pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news


Our intention has been to always leave the set lists and reviews up as a resource even for shows that are not available because they are being sold. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We will try to fix this.

-brewster


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Poster: John H Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Brewster you are wrong. The soundboards did NOT come from the Dead's vaults. The Dead let tapers patch into the soundboard at the shows to get a better quality sound.

So this "compromise" seems to be something YOU have decided based on incorrect information. Sounds like the same incorrect information that led to the original snafu of taking ALL the music off the site.

If you've read Phil's statement, http://www.phillesh.net/philzonepages/friends_stuff/hotline.html , he is saying he wants ALL the music restored, not just the audience tapes.

Come on, get in synch with the band. Ask them (the band not their management) what shows to put on the site and stop making decisions on your own. I believe the band would want all the shows available, soundboards included, and if not we will know why and who is ultimatly behind this decision to limit the archives.

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Poster: OBIEtree Date: Dec 3, 2005 9:14pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

to my knowledge the Dead never let anyone patch into the SBD at shows, especially for better quality. the patches were more likely in exchange for personal favors to the sound person, who then told the people not to let them escape into circulation.

here's a prime example of how a vault recording made it into the wild, without permission from the band.
it's the detailed lineages that prove your theory incorrect.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: April 22nd, 1977
Venue: The Spectrum
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Source: SBD
Lineage: 7 inch Master Reels @ 7.5ips 1/2trk> Dat> Dat (44.1k),
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

the 7 inch master reels, which were paid for by the band and recorded by the bands employee were transferred to DAT.
now who did that transfer? based on the background of this recording we know it was Dick Latvala, a GD employee at the time, then it went to another DAT at 44.1k which usually signifies a Latvala Leak. there was no patch into the SBD and these Latvala leaks were circulated after Dick's passing because the people had hush agrrements with Dick, not the band.
people got in trouble for that and were forced by GDP to return the DATs to GDP. many of those people no longer are active in the public trading community because of the threats of prosecution they got if the recordings made it into circulation.

if the recording comes from the SBD MR or MC it means it came from the Vault, that's what the lineage is for to identify the source. master tapes are vault copies that then went to PCM or DAT by someone in the organization and then were leaked to a couple people and eventually escaped into circulation.

the history of the tapes is sometimes almost as interesting in the recordings themselves.

the best description of how the recording made it into the archive is here.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49431

OBIE

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Poster: evergladephish Date: Feb 8, 2006 9:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Not true .. I specifically remember watching tapers patch intto the board as recently as 1994 in Eugene, Oregon.

This post was modified by evergladephish on 2006-02-08 17:28:20

This post was modified by evergladephish on 2006-02-08 17:29:01

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Poster: choco45 Date: Feb 8, 2006 9:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

dude.you forgot the Chapel Hill Run in 1993.Don't give me no crap story like "Healy did it because he was going to fly the coop soon" or something like that.

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Poster: evergladephish Date: Feb 8, 2006 10:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

There were many instances where people patched in, I was just pointing out the most recent one that I witnessed ... and I'm not sure what you mean, "don't give me no crap..." ????? I'm not sticking up for Healy ... soundboard patches were common throughout the band's history.

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Poster: Andy C. Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:21pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: VERY DISHEARTENING

I just received a reply from the GD ticketing people. I sent them an email stating that my support of the related projects and merchandise is done as long as this situation stands. I recieved a scathing responce from a gal by the name of Ruby. She seemed to have a problem with the fact that I saw my first show in 91 telling me that "Oh.... 1991..... How cute.....You missed a lot of good lessons then. Yeah... Ruby." It seems as though us newbies that have only supported the orginization for the past 14 years don't count anyway. After having this arrogant individual crap on me I feel even better about my decision NOT to continue my support. I guess if you havent been around for 40 years they don't need you anyway!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 3:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

I expect you are aware that the ticketing service had nothing to do with any of the events of this past week or so. Given that fact, I imagine anyone would be able to sympathize with Ruby and company there, who have probably received many, many misdirected messages by now, some of them probably impolite or even angry.

There are very few tempers that would not be frayed by having to deal with that misdirected anger. Very few would not become at least icily polite under the circumstances. Even Miss Manners would approve of the latter. True?

My heart goes out to Ruby, Margaret and whoever else had to man the phones, mail or email at any GD-affiliated operation this past week.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 11:33:28

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Poster: Andy C. Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

Please let me clarify... When I first wrote to the GD tix people I was very polite and simply stated that as long as the current situation existed I would not give any further economic support. I was not pointing fingers at anyone. I was VERY taken back from the responce I recieved from Ruby. I have now had further discussions with Ruby and she apologized for the statement she had made.

Unfortunately, most of the related web sites do not have good contact information for questions or concerns. I mearly have sent the meaasge to whoever I could that my support is on hold until this matter is resolved.

Ruby truly sounds like a good person who has been catching hell for the poast few days. I can only urge folks to be polite and try to be respectful as the folks first recieving these messages did not make this decision.

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to Ruby as I did not realize she was kidding when she made the statement. Given the circumstances, I didn't think for a minute that anyone could joke about this.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

I did not realize she was kidding when she made the statement. Given the circumstances, I didn't think for a minute that anyone could joke about this.

Awesome, now I can *really* sympathize with Ruby! Sister! :)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 12:57:48

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Poster: deanlambrecht Date: Dec 2, 2005 6:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

Ruby is one of the kindest, gentlest people on earth. We're all prone to blow up under difficult circumstances. Trust me, Ruby will go the extra mile for you when you need it. I'm very glad you were able to reconcile with her, and thanks for your apology. Ruby has done more for Deadheads than most anyone in the organization, and deserves heaps of praise and respect, and nothing less.

A devoted friend of Ruby,
Dean

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Nov 30, 2005 4:07pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Halfway there,but still not great news....The SBDS came from the TAPERS from cassettes and reels that the TAPERS paid for,ran and maintained for YEARS. ...NOT FROM THE GD VAULT!!!!!

They are NO different from the audience tapes....The GD NEVER donated a single millisecond of music to the archive personally!!!!! These are OUR tapes and we should be able to do WHATEVER we want with them!!!!!

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Poster: yippierb Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

You are absolutly right. What about those pre compression boards That came from radio stations allover the world. It took almost 15 years to get the 71 Taft Theatre show out of the grimey grip of WEBN(clear channel communications) in Cincinnati. And my DJ buds recorded all the New Years shows that were brodcast..Those sbds didn't come from the band. What's with the folks that suggested we all go back to trading? Man OH Man! I spent decades trading cassettes. Now all that analog stuff has faded with the magnetic deterioration and usage. My old trading network is gone. I am almost 50 years old, I sure don't have the time, money and energy to start trading from scratch again. I have a family to take care of. "I'm a left handed soul in a right handed world" as Nick Da Greek would say. For most of the last year I have struggled with the process of trying to get some of these shows from the LMA onto disc. I ask for help and just get sent to the newbie page or some link for tapers little friend etc...I dearly love this band. I am saddened by some of their decisions. This sight has been a God send Thank You Brewster, and everyone at LMA for your work and dedication. I believe the band should put everything on the archive. I'm not even broaching the Garcia estate's behavior. GD obviously have the ability to improve on 98% or more of what we would have available on LMA on their commercial releases. Free the music. Thx LMA

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Poster: Aaron G. Date: Dec 10, 2005 8:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT news

this is to everyone not just the guy i am "replying to" you know there are ways to record streaming internet i do it all the time so find a computer geek deadhead and get taping before they hack proof or remove it all and then buy some from the band they got plenty of my money over the last 20 years and i also have over 2100 bootlegs of all sources including the ones i found on here that is why i immediatly downloaded 10 shows a day till i had all the ones i did not already have this stuff was on here long enough[moderated]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-10 16:23:30

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-10 16:24:01

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 10, 2005 8:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

This is not just to the guy I'm replying to, who was responding to a message over a week old now:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-10 16:24:17

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Poster: Gizmology Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Right on! You hit the nail on the head. Our tapes. Our music. They own what they have in their vaults. If this were 10-20 years ago how CRAZY would it be if a band member, or someone from the GD orginization were to show up at your house and demand you hand over your SBD tapes?! Unreal.

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Poster: aikox2 Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:50am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Hear, hear!

Don't be so easily appeased by the GD giving back half of our own property which was taken away unrightfully in the first place.

Not only must they give back OUR SBDS, they should contribute a few recordings of their by way of apology and as a show of good faith in the hopes of healing the rift they caused.

Aiko

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

This is the Grateful Dead's music. They got up every morning and went to work every day for 25 years in order to to bring this music to you. This music was their JOB. It was their 24-hour concern for 25 years (and counting). They went to bed thinking about this music, they woke up thinking about this music, and they spent every second of every day thinking about this music -and they did this for 25 years (and counting). Three musicians died in the process, and the remaining four are continuing onward, driven by a force that is impossible to understand -the very same impossible force that took the lives of their friends.
Tapers, although passionate about their own craft, are NOT members of the band. They will NEVER know the amount of work it takes to keep a band, much less a successful band, together for 25 years. The Grateful Dead is a JOB. Taping is a HOBBY.

Keeping six band members employed, content, secure, and alive for 25 years is a JOB.
Tape trading is a HOBBY.

Touring the country, battling local officials over sound ordinances, and making sure promoters don't steal your money for 25 years is a JOB.
Taping a show is a HOBBY.

Writing music, setting up rehearsals, recording albums, finding producers, agents, and road managers that you can trust, battling tendonitis, driving all night to make the next gig, dealing with not getting sleep for 48 hour stretches at a time, standing for 4-hours with an ergonomically incorrect 30lb. weight on your back every day and every night for 25 years straight is a JOB.
Taping a show is a HOBBY. Get the picture?

The money in Bob Weir's pocket is HIS not YOURS. He EARNED it. He WORKED for it. The Grateful Dead is the Grateful Dead's property and no one else's. If they decided to draw some boundry lines on their property, or build a picket fence around it, then they had every right to do so.

The Grateful Dead has every right in the world to do whatever they want with these recordings. We should be thankful for having the privilege of getting this stuff for free this whole time, purely out of the band's graciousness, generosity, and patience. They could have very easily told all of you guys to go screw yourselves, but they didn't -and we should be thankful for that because we have been lucky. But luck, as you know, always runs out, and the best we can do is prepare for the worst when it is gone. If the Grateful Dead decided to one day take these recordings back, then all we could do was be thankful for basically winning the Grateful Dead lottery for the last 25 years. And THAT'S good news.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

Here we go again with the entire argument presented in one conclusory statement:

"The Grateful Dead has every right in the world to do whatever they want with these recordings."

Actually, that's not the way copyright law works under the present circumstances, where the band has given permission to people to freely distribute soundboard recordings of their live shows for more than a quarter century.

But you don't seem to care about any of the relevant facts.

For some strange reason, all you seem to care about is whether Bob Weir has been duly compensated for his hard, hard work all these years.

Let me assure you: Bob Weir has been compensated fairly.

In fact, you don't have to look very hard for a quote from a member of the band saying how wonderful it is that Deadheads freely trade the live music the band created.

Like this one:

"On balance, allowing taping was maybe the smartest business move we ever made." -Phil Lesh, ''Searching for the Sound: My Life with the Grateful Dead.'' New York: Little, Brown, 2005, p. 266.

How about that? Please notice what Phil doesn't say. Phil DOES NOT say: ""On balance, allowing taping was maybe the smartest business move we ever made, but I'm glad we were always very clear with the fans about allowing only audience tapes to be freely distributed."

Remarkably, people here on this forum are now arguing that distributing soundboard recordings was always a risky business because the band wasn't "clear" about its intentions.

My opinion is that is 100% baloney. The support for my opinion may be found in the gigantic mile high mountain of cassette, reel to reel, DAT and CD recordings of Dead soundboards that has been in the hands of fans in one form or another for over a quarter century.

Perhaps you think that Phil Lesh is incredibly selfish because he isn't thinking of all the money that poor, poor Mickey Hart could make if only Mickey had complete control over the digital distribution of every Dead soundboard ever recorded.

Again, I urge people to stop pretending that the Dead are begin generous by allowing us to freely distribute ONLY audience tapes.

That is bizarro world stuff. It's double-speak right out of 1984.


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Poster: teleskier29 Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

Right on...I agree. Why didn't Bobby elaborate on the issue of soundboard rights when he was interviewed by Charlie Rose on 60 Minutes? The topic of "free" music definitely was mentioned in the interview. I can only imagine what Jerry's thoughts on this issue are; I am quite sure he'd be as horrified as I am.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 2, 2005 8:32am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

You don't know how much Bob Weir makes. You assure me that he was compensated handsomely, but really you have no idea. You have no idea how much a tour costs, how much it costs to play a stadium, how much it costs to fill the gas tanks of tour busses, how much it costs to record, how much it costs to do cover art for cd's, how much it costs to print cd's, how much it costs to hire a staff to book shows so you can work steadily, how much it costs to promote a show, how much a sound system costs...the list goes on and on. You think that Bob Weir is rich, but you really have absolutely no idea. You have a perception of the music business, or the rock band experience, that has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Are you his accountant? Do you have his earnings statement in front of you? Were you at the last Grateful Dead Inc. board meeting? What business is it of yours anyway? You guys quote Phil Lesh like he's a personal friend of yours when you really have absolutely no idea what he's really thinking.
It just drives me crazy that these guys were nice enough to offer a reasonable compromise, when they had absolutely no obligation whatsoever to do so, and you ingrates are STILL pissed about it. I would have just told you guys to screw yourselves, and not even have thought twice about it. Did Phish get this kind of crap when they started selling their shows?

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Poster: tie_dyed Date: Dec 3, 2005 3:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

I agree that Phish is a great band, but I have never compared them with the Grateful Dead. And if you think about it, it's not so much that people are pissed. I think it's more of a sadness. The Dead always encouraged sharing their music. They were about the music, not about the money. And you're right, not everyone knows how much Bob makes. But this I can assure you, he is well off. I mean, just think about the merchandise alone. How many times do you see a Dead shirt, or license plate frame, or keychain, or backpack, etc... The list goes on. I have more Grateful Dead paraphernalia than I should possibly have. Yet I trade shows, I love soundboards. The point is, that something as piddly as this is ridiculous. Even if people are downloading and sharing sbd's and whatnot, there are still million if not billions of dollars generated in selling merchandise and albums. Just because it can be accessed and downloaded online, doesn't mean that people will stop buying albums. This is how they brought the world together.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 5, 2005 3:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

The point you made about Grateful Dead merchandise is actually a pretty interesting. How much of that merchandise is actually part of the Grateful Dead's business? I'll bet that 90% (or more) of the merchandise you see with the Grateful Dead's name on it is actually bootlegged.
Have you ever seen a Calvin and Hobbes t-shirt or sticker? 100% of that stuff is unlicensed. 100%! The artist who drew that strip refused to grant anyone the right to merchandise those images. Yet, those images are everywhere.
So how much do we really know about the Grateful Dead's earnings?

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:34pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

"You don't know how much Bob Weir makes. You assure me that he was compensated handsomely, but really you have no idea. You have no idea how much a tour costs, how much it costs to play a stadium, how much it costs to fill the gas tanks of tour busses, how much it costs to record, how much it costs to do cover art for cd's, how much it costs to print cd's, how much it costs to hire a staff to book shows so you can work steadily, how much it costs to promote a show, how much a sound system costs...the list goes on and on."

Um.... actually the answers to those questions are not too hard to figure out.

The real question is: how do YOU know that I don't know how much it costs to do cover art for CDs?

Bizarre is the only word for it.

"You think that Bob Weir is rich, but you really have absolutely no idea."

False. I have a pretty good idea. Rich is a relative term of course and I don't recall saying that Bob Weir was rich.

I do recall saying that it should be apparent to anyone that Bob Weir doesn't **need** to squelch the free digital distribution of soundboards in order to live a comfortable life in retirement. If you disagree with that statement, then please explain why Bob Weir needs to squelch the free digital distribution of soundboards in order to live a comfortable lifestyle.

Otherwise you are arguing with strawmen of your own design.

"You have a perception of the music business, or the rock band experience, that has absolutely nothing to do with reality."

Not true. On the contrary, I'm well-read in the subject and I produce and distribute my own records.

"You guys quote Phil Lesh like he's a personal friend of yours when you really have absolutely no idea what he's really thinking."

Now you completely lost me. I quoted Phil from his book and there was nothing ambiguous about his statement. I think it's pretty clear what he was thinking when he said that letting people tape the shows turned out to be a great business decision.

"It just drives me crazy that these guys were nice enough to offer a reasonable compromise, when they had absolutely no obligation whatsoever to do so, and you ingrates are STILL pissed about it."

Sit down and get ready: I'm still angry that Bush was re-elected and that was over a year ago! Such is the life of ingrates like me.

"I would have just told you guys to screw yourselves, and not even have thought twice about it."

But that's exactly what the Dead did as far as I'm concerned. Is there some giant surprise stash of incredible audience tapes from 1972 that is about to be uploaded here? I doubt it.

"Did Phish get this kind of crap when they started selling their shows?"

How would I know?

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Poster: johnny mo Date: Jan 1, 2006 6:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

I'm not losing too much sleep over whether or not Bob Weir is able to "get his kids through college".

All I know is this: I'm listening to a whole lot more Grateful Dead right now since I read Rolling Stones' article:"Dead vs. the Dowloaders".

See, I did not know about Archive.org. Thanks to the feud, I now do. And I will continue to support the Dead as I have for the past 30+ years.

I'll do this by continuing to buy Dick's picks and going to see Phil and/or Ratdog in concert.

Is it a pity we can't continue to download soundboards for free? Yea, I think so, but I'm already over it as I'm picking my brain over whether I should listen to something from '67 I was not at or should I try to find and explore some of the 50 odd shows I attended and try to reccolect how I enjoyed then what I am pretty grateful to have the ability, thanks to Archive.org, to enjoy now.

Now, if I could only find someone who has Seneca College from 67 where Pigpen did a smokin' Fire On the Mountain, I'd really be ecstatic!!

Let's all enjoy and be happy we have this plethora, this virtual cornucopia of music to enjoy!!

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Poster: East Coast Date: Dec 5, 2005 9:24pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tom Waits

I love Tom Waits

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-06 05:24:08

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Poster: bizzwax Date: Dec 5, 2005 11:46pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tom Waits

Tom Waits for no one!

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Poster: Ski Peru Date: Dec 4, 2005 1:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Well said, biginjapan. I couldn't agree more.

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Poster: nickteller25 Date: Dec 4, 2005 1:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

regardless of the petty arguments between you and Chris U., I too agree with your initial statement.

The ownership of product is an unfortunate reality in the business world, which, incidentally is what the GD were conducting...a business. Sure, a business that played music and encouraged free taping for many years; but, even on the Dead's best day, they were in the business of creating music and continue to be. This fact cannot be avoided.

And the compromise they made, AUD downloads and SB streaming is more than fair. They must protect themselves and their business.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 5, 2005 1:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

As a musician, and an artist, I find this whole 'boycott the Grateful Dead' argument to be incredibly disturbing.

The Grateful Dead's taping policy was originally based on the idea that it would be treated, and received, with honor, clarity, and ethics. The honor has turned into the honor among thieves. The clarity has turned into a half-dream state of misconceptions and faded idealisms. The ethics has eroded into some kind of bastardized pop-legalese which, with a few clever adjustments, makes wrong and right the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure that this arguing, or threatening of boycott, or screaming amongst 'fans' is not what The Dead had in mind.
But for me this dialog (which really isn't dialog at all) asks the age-old question: Does the hard-core fan actually love their favorite celebrity, or do they actually hate their favorite celebrity? This anger for the Grateful Dead did not just pop out of thin air, you know. This is something that has been boiling and festering for years and years. Why? How did it start? Where will it stop? Are they happy that the Grateful Dead gave in to your demands? Clearly they aren't, so, at what point will they be happy? My guess is: never -which is really too bad.
So good luck with your boycott. I hope you win. Stick it to those bastards in the Grateful Dead! Or, no, not the Grateful Dead per se, but their record company...or...not them, but...their....I don't even know who you're sticking it to, really. Do you?

For the record, I'm not a Republican. And besides, the concept (or luxury) of using art to pay one's bills is hardly a right-wing conspiracy. As far as I can tell, there isn't a political party in existence whose platform outlines an entitlement to get free Grateful Dead music.
And good luck to Chris U's record production company. I'm sure that he gives away all of his product for free -which is very admirable. Kudos to him for achieving the impossible.

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Poster: Bill74 Date: Dec 2, 2005 10:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: This IS good news...

I very rarely reply to posts or message boards, but I have to say that I totally agree with biginjapan. This is not "our" music. You can argue to what degree it is the band's music at this point, but that's beside the point. My point is that it's not ours-we don't own it or any rights to it in any way. We should appreciate that the band has been as unselfish as it has been for all these years, and I think the current remedy is good and fair. We have more than fair access returned to us, and some of the band's interest is protected. Not to mention, I think we are fortunate that this situation has been taken care of in any way as quickly as it has been. Sometimes you can't have just exactly what you want, and it's important to appreciate the part of what you want that you do have.

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Poster: ludig Date: Dec 5, 2005 3:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

They've been together for 40 years, but you can say, "25 years and counting" if you wish.

I'm not pissed off and I'm personally not moaning about this situation. I signed the petition to let the band know how I felt.

I will say that I'm disappointed in the way this situation was handled. I will also say that I have purchase almost every single SBD that has been released by GDP and GDM.
Even if I have already downloaded a super-clean version for FREE, I always PAY for the boards released by the band.

I feel that I owe it to them for all the wondeful music they have given us. On the other hand, I'm unhappy that I can't download more boards until they release them for me to purchase. This is truly a bummer.

Later folks,
lu-2@prodigy.net

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 5, 2005 3:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Well, 25, or 40 years with an asterisk. There's still guys out there who say the band died with Pigpen.

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Poster: MushroomEagle Date: Jan 16, 2006 9:20pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

RIGHT ON IS RIGHT....
Look i know in archive and in certain band member's minds we shouldn't be posting about this anymore because its an "old and tired subject" to them...but to us it is what kept us going for 3 years. All of the solutions in the world will never EVER change someone feeling robbed when they are given the world for free...and then 3 years later are forced to give it back. I know i can stream the Hi-Fi and i can use a streamripper to get it on cd eventually. I don't care.
To all those who think we are all spoiled brats and "back in my day we didnt have the internet etc etc" - you know for damn sure that is NO reason to feel peachy about what has just happened. You know how this makes the GD legacy appear. You know that if you were an up and coming and were told you could acquire the greatest music of all time for free...and then in a year told you had better have gotten all you needed - you'd be looking for another nipple to suckle.
Just like the rest of the GD world i want GREAT sounding lossless recordings. THOSE FANS - who would spend the time to find the right show...to spend hours downloading the files and continuing to ruin your already loaded hard-drives...to spend even more time converting and properly labeling and archiving the files for our own collection, and then burning and re-burning the tracks to CD's - are a rare breed. Others with a fleeting interest WOULD deal with streaming the hi-fi's bc it requires less time and effort. Ever since i learned of this site i've attempted to acquire all the dead one would need...but obviously i wasn't fast enough. Nor could i be. And like others have said, it is less anger than sadness.
THESE are the beginnings of ends of bands - when they begin to see a site like this as a BAD thing. A site which has probably single-handedly doubled the fanbase of the grateful dead (which in turn will stir interest in phil & friends and The Dead and Ratdog and all other side projects). This site gave me hope that if enough die-hard deadheads attempted to acquire each and every dead recording (GOOD SBD RECORDINGS MIND YOU) then our children and our childrens children will learn about this wonderful band. RESTRICT the flow of information (:cough:cough:bobweir:cough:cough:) and you will be forgotten much too shortly.

Remaining members of the Grateful Dead hear this:
Read these posts and feel the vibe of anger and sadness from the most loyal of all fans - deadheads - and realize that not retracting this ban on lossless soundboard downloads will hurt your current and your potential future fanbase forever.

and i apologize for replying to "an old post" and all that and i know its not archive's fault.

[mod]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-01-17 05:20:27

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Poster: mcglone Date: Jan 16, 2006 9:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

howdy,

your passion is obvious, but NOBODY owes you anything my friend.

sniff around, look under rocks, challenge yourself on how to find that special show.

pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again - your reward is out there...

ian

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 16, 2006 11:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

C'mon sir, I know *you* know I'm asking people to drop it here. Enough redundancy...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 16, 2006 9:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: pointer to better forum

hear this

Of course your intended targets are not reading at this site. A better site may be the Dead's own, which includes a forum, see deadnetcentral.com.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-01-17 05:25:01

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Poster: Fishead Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:15pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

well said brewster...
i dont get what's so hard to understand.
glad you guys are level headed at LMA.

Peace and jerry on!!!

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Poster: Ski Peru Date: Nov 30, 2005 8:43pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

I have to disagree with you, Pookie. It seems to me that the changed arrangement is one which restores the availability of concert recordings in much the same way as they were available in 1972 or '77 or '89, while protecting both the interests and the legacy of the creators. The message was always something along the lines of "You want a memento of this show, go ahead and stick a mic up -- you want to spread the joy, that's all good too, just don't be making money off what we give you for free." The fact that soundboards ever made it into circulation was gravy -- whether it was by board patch or by later copy, those board recordings exist specifically by the generosity of someone on the inside. Regardless, from start to finish, it's still theirs; all those beautiful recordings are the product of the performers' creativity coursing through wires paid for by their success. We were free to grab it out of the air, but it was never suggested that we were entitled to the board source.

Forty years ago no one could have conceived that a mechanism might one day exist through which release-quality concert recordings might be marketed - in fact, from the perspective of the recording industry's business mavens, it would have been absurd to even think that a market might exist for several thousand seemingly similar 'live albums'. But the Boys have always been a horse of a different color, and they keenly understood the marketing model they'd established, and the medium was the traded audience tape saying "Here's what it sounds like. Tell your friends where you got it. If you like what you hear, you'll buy a ticket to the next show." It seems to me that this new arrangement adheres to the same model, except that now the medium will be the streamed board recordings, and the next show will be the lossless digital source - if you like what you hear, you'll go to their site and purchase it. I don't have a problem with that. Chances are many of the source tapes that they have will sound better than some of the SBD recordings on the Archive which have been run through some Junior Recording Engineer's digital meat grinder.

Ultimately, we have to remember that LMA is a library. I wouldn't go to my library expecting Dickens to hand me his manuscript of Tale of Two Cities, and whatever reproduction he did give me, I know I'd have to return it in two weeks. The only thing that belongs to me in the transaction is the enrichment I derive. That's all I expect.

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Poster: Bill e. Brock Date: Dec 5, 2005 2:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

thanks ski for having some reality based thinking out here. in our lives we have become accustomed to having expectations. but as a great sage once said, "expectations are premeditated resentments".(actually, it was some lady at a 12 step meeting). this situation is just another oppurtunity for folks to grow.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:34am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

"You want a memento of this show, go ahead and stick a mic up -- you want to spread the joy, that's all good too, just don't be making money off what we give you for free." "

Two points:

(1) The idea that the Dead sanctioned only the free trading of audience tapes is 100% bullcrap. I am stunned to see people claiming otherwise. What is going on here????

(2) As far as I can tell, no one at the archive was making money from downloaded shows and no one was permitted to upload a copy of an officially released Dead show for downloading. So I fail to see the money issue ...

...you're actually arguing that the Dead have the right to turn back the clock and pretend that they never actually donated all those soundboard recordings to the public.

Is that what you're arguing??

If so, then let's hear the argument instead of some half-assed "justification" for allowing some members of the Dead organizations to gratify themselves any way they please.

Again: the Dead has every right to make new mixes and fancy new "high definition" digital copies of the master tapes in their vault and SELL THEM TO US. If they are GOOD MIXES and they are GOOD SHOWS/SELECTIONS and they are PACKAGED NICELY we will BUY THEM as long as they PRINT ENOUGH COPIES FOR US TO BUY (hint hint).

But the Dead simply do not have the right -- legally -- to take back recordings that were given to the public freely to exchange. And that is what they are doing with this "compromise". It is bogus. It is wrong.

It is greedy.

Someone here hilariously tried to argue that the Dead have always wanted to be paid for playing.

Guess what?

The Dead were paid very handsomely for playing. Remember how they used to sell tickets for their shows? I had to pay for my ticket. I don't know about you. I believe the Dead actually made some money from playing that music. And they made money partly because they ALLOWED their soundboard recordings to be freely traded so that people could hear what they sounded like and people came to see them play, etc., etc.

Now Bob Weir is sitting in his rocking chair and his kid or his stock portfolio manager is saying: hey, you could make more money if you CHARGED people for downloading those soundboard recordings instead of giving them away like you have been routinely doing for the past 40 years.

Totally bogus.

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Poster: darkstargirl Date: Dec 17, 2005 3:02pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

sorry, i was laughing too hard. i guess i should have cited this. and by the way, thank god metallica never gave anything away for free. if they did, it would be much harder to avoid....still laughing

Poster: pookie Date: November 30, 2005 09:40:44pm
Forum: etree Subject: This is NOT good news


At least Metallica has never given out free soundboards, it always has been about the money $$$ with them. Metallica is upfront with thier greed. Streaming soundboards is NOT good news. :-(

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 17, 2005 9:50pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

You are responding to a discussion going on a month old. The most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Thanks.

Here are a couple posts for context in case you missed them before:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

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Poster: Carpe Diem Date: Dec 3, 2005 4:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news (streaming only)

I must agree with those who feel that the old format that allowed one to stream or download the soundboard recordings should be reinstated.

Over the years, I have supported the band by purchasing virtually everything that has been released (e.g. Dick's Picks, all of the studio recordings, all of the other live releases, the Vault series, the complete Fillmore West set, etc.). (If the band wants to know, it can be verified since I have purchased more than 90% of it via the Grateful Dead website.) I believe that there are many other folks who have done the same thing. In addition, we have attended(and continue to attend) so many live shows.

The ability to download soundboards has probably caused some people to avoid purchasing official releases, but it has also helped the music flourish and spread to new fans. There has probably been little net impact from an economic perspective.

The band can do what they want because it is their music from a legal perspective. However, the whole experiment would not have happened without the long-term loyalty of the Deadheads. In one sense, it is our music too.

In any case, my view and hope is that downloads will be restored quickly. In addition, the band should continue to release material and people should continue to support the band by purchasing official releases. It is the best solution for everyone.

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Poster: manwich74 Date: Dec 4, 2005 3:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

I agree 100%. This is good old-fashioned horse-trading. What's the difference between trading sounboards via snail-mail and downloading them? Downloading was just the next logical step in the evolution of trading. This is all about greed and money. Aren't they making enough off of us? I too buy DP's, DVDs, t-shirts, and all of the other stuff. There was a fine balance. Who os behind all of this? Bob Weir? Mickey? The lawyers? Anyone notice that Bob is getting $45 - $55 per show for playing in theatres and clubs? What the hell is happenning here?! Thank the Gods for Phil. He seems like the only voice of reason in the band for the last 10 years. I guess this latest maneuver will drive the trading of sbd's underground on the internet just like another very popular bittorrent site some may have used some time ago and which still exists, if you know where to look!

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Poster: llull Date: Jan 5, 2006 1:43pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

For fun and for free, ditto that and a fine forthright opinion that holds true for me too. Thank you for expressing it "without a net" amidst a sea of yea sounds fair yesheads.